This model is one of the reasons Eden Prairie still fields a decent varsity program even though their youth level is average at best. Breakaway Academy (Chaska) is a private school that is hockey focused at the younger ages. Then the kids go to EP high school. No transfer rules apply since it happens freshman year. Other nearby schools benefit from this as well.
The coaches may not be there, but they have directed to whomever is in charge what to do. So "hockey practice" is the prefect way to put it.
We're getting off the rails here aren't we?
Yes, I agree. It's very easy with the sport of hockey to implement practices after July 1 with non rostered coach and structure.
Not getting off any rails. Just know how it goes from personal experience as well as seeing it and hearing it.
Keep your stick on the ice...
I am still surprised that KSTC does not cover the Quarterfinals for the Girls
I am still surprised that KSTC does not cover the Quarterfinals for the Girls
I can only assume they don't get enough ad money for it.
That or someone decided that they don't want to make people feel bad if they have to put a game like the Warroad/Albert Lea quarterfinal on tv. (15-1 final)
Also I know they are all about being equal, but this happens every year. Why play in front of 400 people at the X Why not play at Ridder where it looks like there might be a crowd
Even the AA QFs are not on TV for the gals?
Also I know they are all about being equal, but this happens every year. Why play in front of 400 people at the X Why not play at Ridder where it looks like there might be a crowd
Some of the sessions wouldn’t fit into Ridder anymore.
Also I know they are all about being equal, but this happens every year. Why play in front of 400 people at the X Why not play at Ridder where it looks like there might be a crowd
Some of the sessions wouldn’t fit into Ridder anymore.
I would think the QF and SF A games and QF games for AA would. If not it wouldn't be by much.
Actual fact. Before the girls moved over the the “X”. They would go into the locker rooms at the “X” and take out the tv’s cause there were no tv’s in the locker rooms at Ridder.
The girls may have out grown Ridder, especially for AA. Though Mariucci is the perfect place. Play the follow…
A Quarterfinals @ Ridder
AA Quarterfinals @ Mariucci
A & AA Semi’s, 3rd place and Championship @ Mariucci
A & AA Consolation @ Ridder
Keep your stick on the ice...
Both the Gopher men and women are glad the high school tournaments are at the X so they can play home games on Friday and Saturday at their rinks.
I watched the SSP/Fergus Falls game last night, mostly because there are 2 girls on SSP that were 12U/15U teammates with my daughter in our local association. Both transferred to SSP to play hockey for Palmquist (let's be honest... it wasn't for SSP's rigorous academics). Neither left the bench last night, as SSP only played their top 2 lines.
It got me thinking. Both would have much more playing time had they stayed at the school they were supposed to go to, but they would have zero shot at ever going to the state tournament had they stayed. They got to experience going to the X and the fun/camaraderie of being on a state tournament team. On the other hand, what good is going to state if you don't get to play?
These announcers calling the games are about as exciting as a prostate exam
I watched the SSP/Fergus Falls game last night, mostly because there are 2 girls on SSP that were 12U/15U teammates with my daughter in our local association. Both transferred to SSP to play hockey for Palmquist (let's be honest... it wasn't for SSP's rigorous academics). Neither left the bench last night, as SSP only played their top 2 lines.
It got me thinking. Both would have much more playing time had they stayed at the school they were supposed to go to, but they would have zero shot at ever going to the state tournament had they stayed. They got to experience going to the X and the fun/camaraderie of being on a state tournament team. On the other hand, what good is going to state if you don't get to play?
There's something really wrong with Girls Hockey at the MSHSL.
You have big, affluent schools co-oping for girls hockey (looking at you, Chaska-Chanhassen). You have the transfer "portal" from the Strib article a few weeks back. You have both tournaments being played in a 95% empty Xcel Energy Center.
I don't necessarily blame the high schools, but something is wrong in Minnesota Hockey in the girls development program.
Both the Gopher men and women are glad the high school tournaments are at the X so they can play home games on Friday and Saturday at their rinks.
It’s one weekend that both the men and women need to be out of town if the hosted the girls tourney. The men already share Mariucci if they are home during the boys tourney.
Keep your stick on the ice...
@skiumahlaw you would know better than me probably but does the use of the X for both tourneys have title IX implications? From what I recall an attorney could at least make an argument.
@chill-kessel Not directly, but possibly indirectly.
Title IX only applies to entities that receive federal funds. The MSHSL does not receive funds from the Federal government. However, essentially all of its member schools do, and the member schools supposedly control the organization. So potentially by extension Title IX could theoretically apply.
Even so, Title IX does not require equality, but equivalency of opportunity. So the idea that because the boys play at the X does not require the girls to do so necessarily if they could play similarly at a premier venue. I would put Ridder in a category exceeding Richfield Arena (where the Whitecaps play).
But obviously open to argument, which is what I was getting at. I assume they don't want to risk having that argument.
But obviously open to argument, which is what I was getting at. I assume they don't want to risk having that argument.
Any guy that's married knows that sentiment
But obviously open to argument, which is what I was getting at. I assume they don't want to risk having that argument.
Lawyers will make any argument available. Whether or not it is based in reality, well, ehh....
But obviously open to argument, which is what I was getting at. I assume they don't want to risk having that argument.
Lawyers will make any argument available. Whether or not it is based in reality, well, ehh....
Didn't a group of parents actually sue (or threaten a lawsuit) with this exact argument to get the girls to play at the X?
But obviously open to argument, which is what I was getting at. I assume they don't want to risk having that argument.
Lawyers will make any argument available. Whether or not it is based in reality, well, ehh....
Didn't a group of parents actually sue (or threaten a lawsuit) with this exact argument to get the girls to play at the X?
I thought that’s the way I remembered things.
Didn't a group of parents actually sue (or threaten a lawsuit) with this exact argument to get the girls to play at the X?
Back from 2003:
"In a lawsuit filed Wednesday, 11 girls' hockey players seek to force the Minnesota State High School League to move their state tournament to the same venue as the boys' tournament: the Xcel Energy Center in St. Paul.
The current site of the girls' tournament - the University of Minnesota's Ridder Arena - is not "equal or substantially equal" as required by Title IX, said Kathleen Marron, the lawyer for the girls.
The Xcel Center seats 18,000. Ridder Arena on the Minneapolis campus has only about 2,800 seats available to the public, Marron said, making it too small for tournaments.
During the first tournament at Ridder one session drew 2,786. In the eight previous years, 13 sessions have drawn more than 3,000 fans.
The complaint, filed in Hennepin County District Court, says the High School league is in violation of a 1972 federal law banning sex discrimination by schools receiving federal funds, and a similar 1975 state statute.
"This lawsuit is unfortunately required in order to force the league to do the right thing," Marron said. "Female high school hockey players have every right to play their state tournament at the Xcel, where the boys' hockey tournament has been played since the building first opened.
"The size of Ridder Arena harms the chances to draw more fans, said Cloquet/Carleton/Esko coach Richard Bartholdi, whose Lumberjacks lost in the Class AA girls' final last season.
The Ridder Arena is the third site that has been used for the girls' hockey tournament. After one year at Aldrich Arena (capacity 3,400) in Maplewood in 1995, the tournament moved to the State Fairgrounds Coliseum (5,200) in St. Paul for six years. It moved again in 2002 to new but smaller Ridder Arena. Ridder, the home of the Minnesota Gophers women's hockey team, has a capacity of just under 3,400 counting standing room and exclusive suites.
"Under Title IX, the critical issue is whether or not Ridder Arena is equal or substantially equal to Xcel Energy Center," Marron said. "It is not."
Bartholdi has six players who are named as plaintiffs, including his daughter Brigitte. Two other plaintiffs play for Blake, and three unnamed others also live in the metro area.
In response to the suit, league officials said that they had asked the Office for Civil Rights in Chicago to review both sites, and that the Civil Rights group said in January that Ridder was an appropriate venue.
Bartholdi has six players who are named as plaintiffs, including his daughter Brigitte. Two other plaintiffs play for Blake, and three unnamed others also live in the metro area.
I'm pretty positive the 3 unnamed were from South St. Paul.
Keep your stick on the ice...
This is great stuff from Scott Pionk. I never really liked the Tier I and Tier II experiment as Tier II felt like a consolation championship from the start, but Hermantown basically running a AA program that rivals the biggest associations in the state from squirts to high school and then playing in the Class A playoffs has always felt wrong.
I had never really thought about it from the financial side before.
"Hermantown's program has kids in it who live in surrounding communities or whose families moved to Hermantown. Each player means about $10,000 in public funding for their education.
As a former member of the Hermantown Hockey association and longtime hockey camp conductor, I can count up to 50 skaters who moved to the Hermantown program from other schools over the last 10 to 15 years. If they average half their school years in Hermantown, it adds up to over $3 million for the Hawks and a massive loss for their neighbors."
The one amendment I'd make to this proposal is that teams must be required to compete at the Class A or AA level exclusively with the exception of playing programs in their section a level up or level down.
I think the current model for transfers needs serious review. The problem is that in a world where restricting choices is nearly 100% verboten it's a tricky landscape to navigate
My small take on "moving up or not", whatever it's worth. I played sports at Brady High School (private Catholic) in West St. Paul for 4 years. My freshman year ('74-'75) was the first year private schools were included in the MSHSL. We were all thrilled at the chance to play against the best schools in the state. While at the "U" I participated in various rec sports and the goal of any of the teams I played on was always to move up to the next level/class, if possible. Decades of softball followed the same desire: to play against the best, to show you could beat the best and move up the next rung on the ladder. There was nothing more satisfying than playing in "open" tourneys and coming out with at least a couple victories, if not hardware.
There was nothing more distasteful than beating up on competition which you were clearly better than and the thought of continuing to do so never crossed my mind, or that of my teammates. Trophies were never more important than integrity for me.
Anyone have issues watching Prep45 on their smart tv? I can get to the correct page but there is no game list or play button.??? This is all the further I can get.
No issues on desktop.
Gentry/Tonka semi game for the girls. Does Gentry have a student section and really cheers for Gentry besides the player's parents.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Gentry advances to the title game with an OT win. Rube's fault. he knows why.
****
Warrroad wins A 3-1.
Gentry up 3-1 on Andover after 2.
Woodbury knocks off #2 seed Stillwater in the section 4AA quarters, thus smoothing Hill-Murray's path to yet another section final.
Woodbury knocks off #2 seed Stillwater in the section 4AA quarters, thus smoothing Hill-Murray's path to yet another section final.
Go you plucky Royals!
“When your best friend is the son of God, you get tired of losing every argument.”
― Christopher Moore, Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal
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I’m thinking about making a 2 hour drive to Edina for that section final on Thursday night do you think a ticket for that is just a matter of going to braemar arena or is a sell out possible and I’m turned away at the door? Thanks.
In response to the suit, league officials said that they had asked the Office for Civil Rights in Chicago to review both sites, and that the Civil Rights group said in January that Ridder was an appropriate venue.
This was the critical legal line in this article.
The MSHSL settled the matter to avoid the unpleasant PR that goes with a potential Title IX lawsuit. It was also during a period of amazing growth in the girls game and it was anticipated that such growth would continue.
Twenty years later and we are seeing girls programs consolidating. The growth of the girls' game has tailed off and while the top end talent remains, the number of participants appears to be declining. I have to wonder whether even those that were participating back then wouldn't like to run it now at a location which can highlight the sport instead of trying to shoehorn it into the men's game. At the collegiate level, places where the game is given its own facilities (UMN, UW, even OSU) are flying by those where they aren't.
Hermantown scores with 15.8 seconds left to defeat Hibbing 3-2 in the 7A semifinals. What a drag.
Hermantown scores with 15.8 seconds left to defeat Hibbing 3-2 in the 7A semifinals. What a drag.
Well, if you're cheering against H town it's now up to Rock Ridge. And that's a long shot.
For everyone who has bashed how Hermantown structures it's hockey, Alexandria and EGF are doing the exact same thing. Meaning they play PWAA, BAA and then A in high school.
Well, if you're cheering against H town it's now up to Rock Ridge. And that's a long shot.
For everyone who has bashed how Hermantown structures it's hockey, Alexandria and EGF are doing the exact same thing. Meaning they play PWAA, BAA and then A in high school.
Other than going to the State Title game 9 years in a row, playing mostly AA opponents, and outscoring their section final opponent 82-5 the last several seasons, I suppose they are doing something similar...
If Alexandria goes to the state title game for 4-5 years straight, I guarantee people will start to have a problem with it. There have been rumblings of moving to AA. So maybe they are using the youth levels to build their program and move soon.
The problem is Hermantown has clearly built their program. Continuing to get numerous transfers, and crushing everyone in their path on the way to state.
EGF has five AA teams on their schedule this year, Alexandria also has five. Hermantown has 14 AA opponents on their schedule.
I don't really care what Hermantown does with youth program. I have a big issue with what they do at the high school level.
I think the fact that neither of them makes the State Tournament nearly every year and between them have 3 championship game appearances since 2006 vs Hermantown's 10 likely has something to do with that.Hermantown scores with 15.8 seconds left to defeat Hibbing 3-2 in the 7A semifinals. What a drag.
Well, if you're cheering against H town it's now up to Rock Ridge. And that's a long shot.
For everyone who has bashed how Hermantown structures it's hockey, Alexandria and EGF are doing the exact same thing. Meaning they play PWAA, BAA and then A in high school.
Since Hermantown's run started in 2006, they've missed 2008, 2009, 2019. That makes 14 State Tournaments. In the same span, Alexandria had 4, and EGF had 8.
Looking at this year's section playoffs, Alexandria and EGF are in different sections. Did that change recently? I notice they've never made the tournament in the same year. If they were in the same section, then it starts to become more of an issue, since it almost always down to one of the two of them making state. Either way, the fact that Hermantown made the championship game 10 out of the last 13 tournaments makes them the obvious target here.
B1G refs... corrupt, or just incompetent?
Hibbing hasn't been to State since 2004; for me, they're the type of school the "AA/A" separation was done for. If Hermantown, EGF and others can churn out section and state titles and look in the mirror each day and be okay with it, that's on them. I'll always pull for David against Goliath. And any school that chooses to lay back, so they can collect more hardware, well, they'll always be on my sh*t list. For now, go Rock Ridge.Hermantown scores with 15.8 seconds left to defeat Hibbing 3-2 in the 7A semifinals. What a drag.
Well, if you're cheering against H town it's now up to Rock Ridge. And that's a long shot.
For everyone who has bashed how Hermantown structures it's hockey, Alexandria and EGF are doing the exact same thing. Meaning they play PWAA, BAA and then A in high school.
Alexandria has been in 6A for a while now. I think that if they have sustained success & become a wrecking crew like Hermantown is right now, they would welcome the move, which would be good for lots of parties giving 8AA another team & someone like Buffalo or STMA staying closer to home. I imagine EGF is along the same lines. The difference is the decade long dominance. Hermantown is well established; Alex & EGF are not at this point.
6AA Final tonight at BIG: (1) Wayzata vs (2) Edina. Have to imagine the winner will be given no worse than a #2 seed next week at the tourney. Sold out. Link for game (purchase) https://app.staylive.io/youthsports/livestream/s-section-6aa-final-tbd-vs-tbd-ytbrhe
I know it's been discussed endlessly & it's just not a thing anymore like it was 10-15 years ago, but the Wednesday night section final doubleheader at Mariucci was always one of my favorite hockey nights of the year.
Thanks, @gator and @doc-holliday . I suspected they've been in different sections, but wasn't sure. The two combined, in different sections (so it's not like the only real obstacle they have in making it to state is each other) have combined for 2 fewer state tourney appearances, and 7 fewer championship game appearances.
That's why people aren't complaining about EGF and Alexandria like we do about Hermantown.
B1G refs... corrupt, or just incompetent?
Alexandria has been in 6A for a while now. I think that if they have sustained success & become a wrecking crew like Hermantown is right now, they would welcome the move,
They do dominate a weaker A section and play AA association hockey. Whether they welcome it or not they'll be AA hs soon. 
They may be already. I believe the 2023-2024 MSHSL numbers have been crunched last week and they're just waiting for appeals.
which would be good for lots of parties giving 8AA another team & someone like Buffalo or STMA staying closer to home.
Maybe for playoffs but they're already in separate conferences.
The difference is the decade long dominance. Hermantown is well established; Alex & EGF are not at this point.
So it's just how good they are? I don't have any skin in the 7A game but if anyone can tell me specifically what rules/laws Hermantown is breaking I'll make some phone calls.
Do you honestly believe anyone thinks Hermantown is actually breaking any rules/laws here?
B1G refs... corrupt, or just incompetent?
Are there any free streams for these section games or are they still paid?
His point is there is always going to be somebody who is the best in Class A.
Does that team always have to move up to AA?
The best team is likely to have certain advantages that are helping them.
Before Hermantown it was St. Thomas Academy that people where pissed at. Which is kind of ironic since at the time people were rooting for Hermantown to beat St. Thomas Academy in the State Tournament because people were tired of STA.
At some point there will be a new best team in Class A and people will get mad at that team. The cycle tends to repeat itself.
BTW, how has moving to AA worked out for St. Thomas Academy? A strong case can be made that it hasn't worked out that well for them.
Yes I realize St. Thomas Academy is in the section 3 champion game so they might make it to state this year but this is their 10 season in AA and they've yet to make it.
Sports by their nature always have things that people can legitimately be upset about and I get why people are mad at Hermantown but in the end they are doing what they think is best. This same argument happens every year right around state tournament time we can use it to set our watches. Oh wait nobody owns watches anymore. ?